BPL22: Can a Rib out of Place Cause Back Pain?

by | Apr 4, 2019

 

SHOW NOTES

Can a rib out of place cause back pain?

Today’s guest Vienna Dunham Smith certainly thinks so.

The release of tight muscles around the ribs has become the major focus of her work.

“Among the hundreds of people I’ve worked on … only one that reported chronic back pain … when I checked his ribs .. said he didn’t feel any tenderness in any of the spots I was checking”

 

Excerpts from the Show

Vienna says that complaints of a

invariably respond to muscle release techniques applied to an out of place rib.

In this, the second half of the interview with Vienna, we also hear  how this links to

We also touch on psoas release for lower back pain.

 

Today’s Guest

Experienced massage therapist, and author of Stop the Pain: Your Hands-On Manual for Neck and Back Relief, Vienna Dunham Schmidt

 

Live Pain-free Eliminate Chronic Pain without Drugs or Surgery

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BPL22: Can a Rib out of Place Cause Back Pain?

Can a rib out of place cause back pain? Listen to Vienna Dunham Schmidt explain release of tight muscles around the ribs. Podcast show notes.

Click the play button to listen to this episode now

Stabbing Pain between the Shoulder Blades

We hear that complaints of a stabbing pain between the shoulder blades invariably respond to ortho-bionomy release techniques applied to an out of place rib.

“In every case, when someone comes and says ‘I have a stabbing pain between the shoulder blades’, it has been because there’s a rib out of position”

 

Hi, I’m Iain Barker creator of Back Pain Liberation.

I got back pain young and it got worse over time. Like many others in this situation, I saw plenty of doctors and therapists – all to no avail.

In the end self-help worked best – it often does for bad backs. Now I train regularly, focus on what works, and don’t get back pain.

My goal is to share what I learned. To help you find a more effective way when treatment doesn’t hit the spot.

 

Repetitive Strain Injury Back Muscles

Vienna tells the story of a client, who was a very successful hairdresser.

Her work meant that she would stand over her clients all day.

Years of repeating the same motions eventually led to the sudden onset of severe back pain

“That repetitive motion, that repetitive strain injury, it’s a thing … it had been building for years, decades. And then one day insult piled on top of injury, that rib hopped out of place”

Upper Back Pain and the Trapezius Muscle

We talk about stress and tension in the upper trapezius muscles.

Vienna finds that most people are surprised by how far up the torso the ribs extend.

In her experience, the top ribs can be pulled out of place by this excess tension in the upper traps.

“So you actually just need to release the muscles of that upper trapezius, which is so strong, it can actually lift the top three ribs out of position”

Vienna says that too much screen-time is a big part of the problem

“Almost everybody that comes to me … sits at a desk in front of a computer or sits on their cell phone, texting, you know, using devices is one of the most common things that leads to that tension up there”

 

Thanks for Listening!

 

Do you feel tension or tenderness around the ribs or breastbone? Maybe there are cracks and klunks when you move?

Did you find a way to fix this problem? Leave a comment below.

To help out the show, click a link to iTunes, Stitcher or TuneIn:

  • Subscribe.
  • Leave an honest review.

Thanks to Vienna Dunham Schmidt for joining me this time to talk about rib out of place back pain.

Best,

Iain

 

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Full Transcript – BPL22: Can a Rib out of Place Cause Back Pain?

Iain Barker
So this is something that you cover in some detail, quite a lot, is the idea of tense muscles, not getting enough blood flow, leading to pain. And what you’re trying to achieve is to let go some of that tension to increase the blood flow to that muscle to reduce the pain. That … I was kind of expecting. Something else, that you mentioned a lot, which I wasn’t expecting so much is; you talk about ribs, a lot.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Yes, yes I do. Actually, that has become the major focus of my work. And to my very great surprise, among the hundreds of people I’ve worked on on the table, only one that reported chronic back pain, said, you know, when I checked his ribs, he was the only one who said he didn’t feel any tenderness in any of the spots I was checking. And he was very muscular. He worked out all the time. And I think he was just a little bit impatient like ‘What’s this? I want’ you know ‘Give me some deep tissue massage.’ so I don’t know that it was a really good test. But that’s the only one that has said he didn’t have any ribs out of position when I just touched in the area. And so it’s been a great surprise. And I’d say, in every case, that when someone comes and says, ‘I have a stabbing pain between the shoulder blades.’ It has been, because there’s a rib out of position. So if I can share a story? A woman came in, who was in her 50s. And I didn’t know what to think if I could even help her. She came in with a walker, bent over grimacing in pain. And, you know, saying ‘It’s a 10.’ you know ‘I don’t know if I can even get on your table.’ And so we lowered it, she was able to get on. And her story was that she, eight months before, she was this very successful hairstylist. And she was training, you know, mentoring young women in it and just at the height of her career, and all of a sudden, one day she gets this stabbing pain by her shoulder blade. And can’t tell what it is can’t do anything to relieve it. And she ends up going to chiropractors and massage therapists and physical therapists and surgeons and ends up at Mayo Clinic. She went the full distance – that’s a famous clinic here in the United States.

Iain Barker
I’ve seen their website. Yeah,

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Exactly. So she ends up there, and they can’t figure out what it is. So she comes home, and, one day, ends up in the emergency room, and they give her oral medications and injected medications, and it’s not touching it at all. Off the charts, you know. And somebody says ‘Hey, let’s put a pain patch on this. Let’s try that.’ Don’t really tell her much about what it is. and by golly, it helps. And so she’s

Iain Barker
What is a pain patch?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Okay, yeah. So it’s actually got an a narcotic, an opioid in it. That goes through the skin

Iain Barker
Direct to the site of the pain. Okay

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Exactly. And that sounded, at the moment, like good news, like, ‘Wow, I can finally think and breathe and all this. Move.’ Until a week later. She’s addicted to it. Yes. And then Mayo Clinic says, ‘Hey, we will help you get over that addiction for just a month of your life and $40,000.’ Here in the States, we’ve got a particular problem; proliferation of opioid addiction. So it’s not a not a pretty picture, but so she’s on the table tells me this incredibly moving story. And the, one of the other really painful things to her emotionally was, you know, the doctor was saying, you know, you’re gonna have to live with this, it must all be in your head. And because the because of the words she chose, she said, it feels like someone is stabbing me. And that caused them to send her for a psych eval.

Iain Barker
Wow,

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

That was harsh.

Iain Barker
Can I just interject briefly, because I’ve got a passage from your book, which I’ve highlighted, which goes like this, ‘When a person is in chronic pain, they can feel very discounted, and frustrated, to have someone suggest that because there’s not been a physical cause for the pain found, the pain must therefore be all in their head, so to speak. This book is primarily about releasing the muscle tension that causes very real pain, whether the source of the tension is physical, mental, or emotional. And that yeah, that really kind of spoke to me, because I know what that feels like that frustration that you just described of someone who who can’t really get a concrete diagnosis. And despite going to lots of different people for help, and you know, this can be quite expensive as well.

And it’s just is frustrating. You feel like you’re not get getting anywhere.

And there must be something seriously wrong to cause all this. This pain.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Exactly.

Iain Barker
And yeah, no one seems to be taking it seriously, because they can’t find anything wrong. Yeah, that’s a position that I’m familiar with. And I’m sure plenty of other people are as well. So yeah, that resonates with me that passage in your book. Sorry to interrupt you, you were talking about your hairdresser. And I guess her actual job, her job of leaning over someone all the time, that is going to cause its own problems, isn’t it?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Iain you’ve nailed it!

Iain Barker
I’m sorry, I stole the punch-line there!

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

That is just perfect. Because it’s that repetitive motion, that repetitive strain injury, you know, it’s a thing. And so, you know, it had been building for her for years, decades. And then one day insult piled on top of injury, that rib hopped out of place, you know, was pulled into the backyard, and there it was crying in the rain, you know, and there was no,

no convincing it to come back inside to its proper home. Because now the stabilizing muscles who are doing a big favor, so it doesn’t go further awry. But they also are have become part of the issue. And so now we need to release some tension on the muscles. And I actually experienced it myself at some point, and didn’t find the resolution until I came across these methods. And I have that stabbing pain, it would sometimes only be nagging. And sometimes it could be pretty sharp. And I finally found that I could go and persuade my chiropractor to check my ribs. And he would use a forceful movement and it would be like, ‘Ah, yes!’

Iain Barker
Really?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Yeah. And yet, the surprising thing to me was the he wasn’t one who did soft tissue work. And so, you know, put a little Icy Hot type, you know, some kind of liniment on it. And I walked out the door. And one time I got in the car, and something with a movement I made; those tense, muscles pulled it right back out again.

Iain Barker
So as you were leaving?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

As I was leaving. Yeah

Iain Barker
That’s no good. Is it? If it doesn’t even last until you get home

I tried chiropractic treatment. And we also have osteopaths in the UK. And, you know, they sort of manipulated my back and there were lots of clunk and cracks. I never really felt that helped me at all.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

I did find relief. And if if I had, you know, ways that I could try to stretch it might last a few days, you know, but, but then this was like a game changer when I figured out and and with ribs, it’s odd as well, we, it’s surprising how high up they go. I’ll tell you that in a moment. But that one between the shoulder blades, I could, I finally figured out how to release that. And then found out that it was also it had been shifted on the front as well, where it attaches to the sternum to the breastbone

Iain Barker
You describe the ribs higher up in the chest as like bucket handles

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Yes.

Iain Barker
Which I thought was quite a nice description. So they’re kind of attached at each end, and kind of loop out around the chest.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Yeah. And it’s, it’s the thing, that kind of thing, because it’s a solid bone. It doesn’t matter whether it got pulled out by tension in the back or pushed out by a pressure on the front, you know, I had a friend fall onto a shovel and

impact a couple of ribs out of place. And then the muscles tighten around that. So it doesn’t matter how it happens a force or tension pulling it, shifting it out of position. But when they’re out on the front there, you have to tend to that as well. So I I talked about taking the whole tending to the whole path of the rib, because if it’s been out a long time, chances are the muscles along the entire path of the rib are unhappy.

Iain Barker
When I used to get back pain, I used to feel a lot of tension around the breastbone as well.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Yes.

Iain Barker
And sometimes they would be like a sort of, you know, clunking and cracking?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Yes.

Iain Barker
And I haven’t thought about that for a long time. But it came back to me when I read your book.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Exactly. So I encourage people to to, if they’ve got tension along the breastbone along the spine. There’s a rib attached to each of the thoracic vertebrae. And that’s how they’re numbered, actually, the ribs are numbered T1, you know, to match with the thoracic vertebrae. And so if they, you know, if there’s a way to check that, and I think the probably the most surprising one to me, is when I feel a knot, I used to feel it up between the neck and the shoulder, far as that line, and then between the collarbone and the shoulder blade. So can you picture that? If you go right in between those four landmarks?

Iain Barker
Yes.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Okay.

Iain Barker
Yeah.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

And listeners, if you’d reach up and feel that right now, if you have a knot in there, it often gets called a trigger point. And then someone doing their very best to help you might land on that with their thumb or their elbow, and make you run away or freeze and hope they think you’re dead.

Or it’s going to come off. And the trick is, that is not actually, to my experience. A muscle knot. It’s actually the first rib. You’re palpating the first rib. And so that’s not nice to bruise a rib. So you actually just need to release the muscles of that upper trapezius, which is so strong, it can actually lift the top three ribs out of position.

Iain Barker
Okay

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

So its powerful. So keep that upper trapezius happy.

Iain Barker
And that is a common place where stress and tension is expressed, in the upper traps, isn’t it?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Almost everybody that comes to me that sits at a desk in front of a computer or sits on their cell phone, texting, you know, using devices is one of the most common things that leads to that tension up there. And so in my book, I mentioned, my best strategy for that is called shrug, chicken wing lean.

Iain Barker
So I saw that yeah, that’s in my notes here. That’s nice, this is an exercise is it one thing? You go from the shrug to the chicken wing to the lean, have I understood it correctly?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

That is exactly right. And it’s, it’s not as much an excercise, which denotes to me using a muscle, as it is a release. So you’re actually putting it at rest. So you can actually use your other hand to lift that shoulder up, if you can, and then shrug and lean into the wall. And then immediately, a lot of people start feeling the warmth, his blood comes in.

Iain Barker
Yeah.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

And as you bring it back down, you give a little tug on the elbow to stretch that out a little now getting some space where it’s been all tight. And it’s amazing; that knot will actually begin to recede as that rib goes back toward home, as the muscle stop pulling it out of position.

Iain Barker
Okay, and you also talk about releasing? Well, a couple of sections before that you’ve got release your core. And this is about the psoas.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Yes, yes. And I’ll I’ll refer to Liz coke with that one. k o ch. I got to take a class from her. And it is absolutely profound. The importance of having your psoas released. I was just working on someone yesterday who said ‘You know, when I was a teenager, I used to run and think how can people stand this?’ He said on his from his inner thigh up through his groin would be so painful, he could hardly take another step. And that’s where the psoas has attaches. And it also attaches to the five lumbar vertebra on the inside, the stomach side. So low back pain. Yeah, think ‘Psoas’ think ‘let’s get this released.’ And so yeah, in the book is a little picture of, you know, we give a little demonstration in the videos of how to lay on your back and release. But Liz has two books about that ‘core release’ and ‘psoas book’ that really can give some details on how to bring relief to that. And then that changes the whole hip flexor scene, and the low back in the hip joints. So that is worth looking at if you’ve got pain in those areas.

Iain Barker
Yeah, it really is quite astonishing how much you can do to help yourself with this kind of problem, isn’t it?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

You know, I, I say that the person themselves is actually the most likely to be successful, because they are the insider. They have the they know exactly where it is and how much pressure it’s going to take. And so if you just have a few tools, yeah, you can likely completely change the course. And I also speak of a there’s the negative pain spiral. And I mean it it’s cycles down fast, right?

Iain Barker
Yes,

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

You’ve been there. And

Iain Barker
Yes,

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

if you can just reverse the direction. It’s like, it’s like a corkscrew, you’ll come back up out of that, and go on the upward happy cycle. And just by taking matters into your own hands, I I actually was so delighted when you contacted me about being on your podcast, because

Iain Barker
Oh, good!

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Yeah. Your audience is exactly my audience.

Iain Barker
Fantastic, I think you’re right

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

And so just people who are at wit’s end, with the ‘somebody else trying to help me’ which hasn’t worked. And are looking toward what they can do for themselves, because they are going to determine

Iain Barker
Exactly. I can’t remember exactly the phrase you used. But it was something along the lines of, you’re the person, you know, the person who’s suffering the pain.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Yeah

Iain Barker
Who’s got the the the most to gain from making it work, you’re going to be the most motivated, like, you have the vested interestIn making it work. I like it, that you put a nice quote at the beginning of each chapter. And I’ll whizz back to the introduction. And you’ve got a quote from Tony Robbins. Where he says ‘Change happens, when the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of change.’ I think that’s very profound. Because we don’t like to do new things do we?

We want to maybe get rid of the pain, but you know, ‘I don’t want to do anything different.’ ‘I want someone to treat me, I want to take a pill’ for example, maybe have some sort of procedure, and it will just be fixed for me. But life doesn’t really – well, sometimes life works like that – But I think for chronic pain, that’s just not the way it goes, is it?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

No. I have not among all the people that I’ve interacted with about that, that has not been the case and those who have opted for surgery, somebody dangled a carrot out there and said, ‘This is your answer.’ And unfortunately, many traded one pain for another. And I gotta tell you Iain, Oh! There’s some aggressive treatments out there now. The whole top rib thing is, I think now called Thoracic Outlet Syndrome. And I

Iain Barker
It’s a syndrome now.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Yeah, yeah. And I can hardly even say it. The new remedy is to remove the top rib.

Oh, yeah. And you know, what people are saying their symptoms are with that is tingling in their fingers. Yeah. And numbness and pain down the arm. And such as that. And here’s how it happens. The top rib attaches right below the collarbone. So if you want to reach up and feel

Iain Barker
I’m doing it. I’m so suggestible!

I’m poking away at the top of my chest!

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

and so then just drop down right below that, and you’ll feel another hard surface. And that’s your first rib, and feel if that’s tender push on that. Do you feel tenderness there?

Iain Barker
I don’t actually no. I’ll feel pretty good there.

But I did train this morning, as I do most days. So when you know, my, my training is based around, well, posture, relaxation and movement. So I try to avoid being too tense.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Exactly! That is beautiful. In fact, I’m planning to book one of your taster calls.

Iain Barker
That would be brilliant. Although I might feel a little bit nervous.

You know, you being a professional and all.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

well, we’ll see how it goes, You are professional at what you do, you are helping people that qualifies you.

But the one that we had pulled up against the collarbone. That That doesn’t sound too terrible if you just think of two bones touching each other unless it’s in the knee, you know, bone on bone. But up here, that doesn’t sound so bad. Until you know that the nerves to the arm, the brachial plexus, whole string of nerves go into the throughout the arm is between them. And that’s what’s getting pinched. So remove the rib, or you can relax the muscles and let it drop back down into its happy place. [Yeah}. And give space to nerves and blood vessels again.

Iain Barker
Yeah. To me that that that’s no choice.

Wow, that’s amazing.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Truly,

Iain Barker
I’m just looking through my notes. And I found another term, which was new to me. Thermography.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Oh, yes, I’d love to tell you what that is.

It’s imaging with a digital infrared. So it’s digital, infrared thermal imaging DITI. And it can be used by contractors to take a picture of your house. And if there’s red around your windows, then your heat is leaking out. You need to insulate, right? So in medical imaging, it is so sensitive, that it’s to .01 degree of temperature change.. And so in its particular application in the office that I was working in, when I learned about it, it was for breast imaging, and it’s a non radiation, non compression, mammogram alternative. And so all

issues that can happen in the breasts are accompanied with temperature change. So it can spot blood vessels as they’re coming into service, a brand new growth. So it’s it’s quite a bit earlier than some alternatives, which I will not name that are looking for a one centimeter growth that is has now been growing for seven to 10 years. So I I’d like to say that’s not early detection. [Ok]. So anyway, that’s the thermography.

Iain Barker
And is it used in chronic pain?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

It can be. And so one man who had chronic pain in around below his knee. And he had, you know, had been to vein doctors and his regular doctor, and they’re just saying, ‘No, there is nothing here’. And he said, ‘You know what, my veins are on fire, I beg to differ,’ and pain, pain, pain. And he found out about the thermography. And the image showed the exact Lacy pattern of the veins in it, they were red hot. And he was able to take that to the doctor, and then they believed him. So it can demonstrate Yes, there’s actually inflammation here.

So it can help pinpoint.

Iain Barker
Yeah, okay, good. I’ve scrolled down, we were talking about chapter six, psoas and the upper trapezius release, and other things. I’m just looking now at the chapter seven, which is getting towards the end of the book – Moving Forward.

And a quote at the beginning of that chapter, ‘physical well being necessitates listening to what you already know. And then taking it seriously enough to act accordingly. When you wake up and feel the impulse to arch your back and stretch, and exhale with a loud sigh – do it.’

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Exactly. [Yeah.] So just that, I think it’s worth saying that even if the messages are primarily pain right now, for some of our listeners, that it would be very important for them to take the risk, and open up to hearing the messages so that they can tend to the issues, and then begin to have more of the pleasure messages.

Iain Barker
Right. So you, kind of, ask yourself questions about, well, for example, pain or other areas of your life, am I right?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

That’s exactly right. So just listening, and, and then acting on it, caring, caring for yourself. And, you know, even for myself, I have not over the course of my life until this past year, taken self care very seriously. And I think maybe especially for mothers, [yeah] you know, where you have these little, when they’re babies, they’re helpless little beings completely dependent on you, you know, for feeding and comfort and so on. And there’s, there’s just such a demand there. [Yes,] that we can give ourselves away, lose ourselves, I lost myself for a number of years. And so I would like to just say, to your listeners, dear friends, I give you permission to take care of yourself. If If you thought that that was selfish, I’ll refer to the little quote, when you get on an airplane, put your own oxygen mask on first, please. Because when when your cup is empty, you have nothing left to give. And if you’ll take the time to let your cup fill, even to the point of overflowing. It’s it’s so much more a sweet drink when it’s out of the overflow, than out of the dregs at the bottom of the cup. [Yeah,] so that’s my, my encouragement.

Iain Barker
Quite right. There’s no requirement to, you know, put everyone else first and neglect your, your own well being

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

I’m a person of faith. And I have to say, That’s not even righteous.

To give yourself so completely that you die in the process, you know, you don’t get to live to your potential if you’re in pain. And especially once you know there’s a solution, if you choose not to take care of it. [Yeah,] you don’t get brownie points for that.

Iain Barker
One of the what you call comfort tools, you’ve kind of mixed them together, or you group them together, prayer, meditation and mindfulness. And the sort of breakthrough

thing for me was Tai Chi/Qigong. And meditation was was part of that, you know, a very important part for me. And you, you’ve just mentioned that you’re a person of faith. And it’s only I’ve only really recently began to sort of make the connection as to why people often say that they’re at peace. [Yes.] When they’re

praying, talking to God. [Yes.] And I think it’s a very, I’ve just really put the connection together recently. That it’s, it’s a similar kind of state of mind, I would think, [yes,] prayer and meditation,

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

I would say so. And I think part of the what’s going on physically with that, is that we are reversing that negative spiral. And exactly, we’re starting with the sympathetic nervous system that’s fight flight freeze, and going toward the parasympathetic, which is rest and digest. So I heard a brilliant little word picture the other day. And the person said, when you’re running from the saber tooth tiger, you may see the golden apple on the tree. But If you pick it you’re lunch!

just getting to the point where I mean, like even, even though there’s no Tiger anymore, we, we can still hang out, you know, we can remember a past emergency and still be living there and feel like we don’t have time to pick the apple. But in that meditation, prayer space, where we give ourselves room and we we be in the now it’s not the tiger that used to be there. And it’s not the tiger that may be there in the future. But we’re right here right now. We can look around the room and go, ‘Okay, no, Tiger. All right. I’m going to pick the apple.’

We can afford to be at peace.

Iain Barker
Yes. Very powerful thing.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Yes, indeed.

Iain Barker
Okay.

Is there anything else that we’ve missed?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

one of your questions that I really liked was what are some myths about back pain? And okay, I wanted to just mention a few of those. If we have time,

Iain Barker
please do yeah. Yeah, take as long as you need.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Okay. So one of the primary myths that I bump up against, in some treatment options is no pain, no gain. [Yeah,] and even at the gym, I mean, I see people working out with that in mind and rolling using hard foam rollers to roll out there IT bands with tears in their eyes, you know, and so that the kind of the corollary to that would be pain is gain. So yeah, I have people come in, and just all but demand deep pressure. And I just, you know, I give them the names of other massage therapists. Like that is not who I am. And I have another another path. And so the body during those kind of painful interactions, be it at the gym, or during a deep pressure situation is it’s thinking ‘I need to fight off or run away or freeze.’ And that’s just flooding the body with stress hormones.

Iain Barker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I have had quite hard messages that have been actually painful. And the body just -well my body – just tenses up.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

that’s me too. And I made the appointment and I paid for it.

Iain Barker
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I won’t be doing this again?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Yeah, exactly. So with deepest respect to deep pressure massage therapists, and those who think they benefit from it, that’s fine. But [yeah, absolutely.] This is this other thing is my way. So. And [yeah,] another myth is that hope killer of ‘You’re just gonna have to live with it.'[ Yeah.] And so when a medical authority says that, you know, [yeah,] they just take it as some people take it as truth and just hunker down to suffer and maybe try different substances, like you said, in an effort to numb the pain. I don’t think a lot of your audience is that. I think they’ve come past, you know, through that stage, if it’s a stage, and are on the other side looking for answers that they can implement.

Iain Barker
I hope so. Yeah. This is the, this is the point. Really?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Yeah. So they’ve decided not to let that prophecy create their reality of [Exactly, yeah,] you’re gonna have to live with it,

Iain Barker
You’re good with the words.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

So they’ve, our listeners are walking down the road with you, and finding answers that can implement, they can implement to change the trajectory of their life. And so I’m, I’m really thrilled to be here. And I also wanted to just mention, sometimes people, you know, we can be so focused on our own pain, and we forget the implication for others. And so the person actually, that I had in mind when I wrote the book, had had a 15 year battle with chronic pain, with the stabbing pain in between her shoulder blades. And it was such that there were days she’d have to stay in bed, and she couldn’t get to her son’s ball games. And [yeah,] you know, it affected her children.

Iain Barker
I think this is not uncommon, where it gets that bad for people.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Exactly. And, and I think her children understood even if they were disappointed, but she was on her own guilt trip feeling like she was a bad parent. [Yeah]. And so I that’s, that’s part of my motivation to help people get past this because they want to be there for their children. Yes. And then in her case, or significant other. Yeah, she couldn’t be present in that relationship. Because your brain and emotions were consumed with overwhelming pain. [Yeah], constantly. And then the whole family because finances were challenged, as you said, [yeah,] it is not cheap, to especially, you know, at least in the States, those alternative things are not covered by insurance. So it just is just a bad situation. But I really want to offer hope out there for people that if you feel like, your pain has taken you into a place of great loss in relationships, and finances, and such, if you have pain like we’re describing today. I know just what to do. And I’d love to help you. And you can start just start with the book. If you need further help. I, I love your pattern of offering a taster. And I also offer a discovery call of 30 minutes and people can schedule that at the website as well.

Iain Barker
Okay, so is this a phone call?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Yes, actually, it’s a video phone call. I [ok,] I happen to use zoom. But I want people to be able to, I need them to be able to point to where that the pain is. And [yeah,] and watch their face and so on as they’re doing it to see if the strategies that have been put in my hands might be helpful for them.

Iain Barker
Cool. Yeah. Okay, so we’ll put all the links and all the details for everything we talked about [perfect] on the blog. So that’s going to be on the Back Pain, Liberation blog, and this is going to be episode number. Well, I think it’s gonna be a couple of episodes. Now. We’ve been talking for over an hour. Okay, so be episodes 21 and 22. So yeah, fantastic.

It’s been lovely talking to you. [My pleasure]. And I’m looking to get these episodes out soon. So this week coming Wednesday, hopefully and then the following week. So yeah, it’s going to be a quick turn around this time. Awesome.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

All right. Well, thanks for all you do. Iain

Iain Barker
Well thank you, thanks for sending your book me I did enjoy reading it, I thought it was really interesting.

Some things that I already already knew. And I I’ve already put into practice myself. It it kind of explained them in a different way, which resonated with me, and I enjoyed reading. And there were some other things which were new to me, which of course I enjoyed reading as well. So yeah, I liked your book. Oh, it’s, we’ve already said it’s out on both Amazon and on your own website, isn’t it?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

That’s correct.

Iain Barker
I saw it had some nice reviews on Amazon as well. I just checked today. It’s got three five star reviews. So that’s pretty good. And

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

it it actually just published a week ago. It came out last Thursday on Amazon.

Iain Barker
Well, that’s not bad. [Yeah!] In the first week.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Exactly.

Iain Barker
And you know, 100% five star reviews when I looked so yeah, fantastic.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Very encouraging.

Iain Barker
Absolutely. Yeah. So thanks for coming on the show.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Certainly my great pleasure. And if people have questions, they can also email me at vienna@stopthepainbook.com

Iain Barker
You’re on Facebook as well, aren’t you?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Yes.

Iain Barker
And and is that also under the stop the pain,

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

stopthe pain book. And I haven’t done a lot with that yet. I was focused on getting the book published, but I’ll be adding some more to that here shortly. I want to make that place that people can ask questions as well.

Iain Barker
Yeah, sure. Yeah.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Beautiful.

Iain Barker
Okay.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

All right.

Iain Barker
Thanks for coming on the show. Lovely talking to you.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

My pleasure. And all the best to you out there in listener land.

Iain Barker
Okay, bye bye. All the best.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

BPL22: Can a Rib out of Place Cause Back Pain?

by | Apr 4, 2019

 

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Can a rib out of place cause back pain?

Today’s guest Vienna Dunham Smith certainly thinks so.

The release of tight muscles around the ribs has become the major focus of her work.

“Among the hundreds of people I’ve worked on … only one that reported chronic back pain … when I checked his ribs .. said he didn’t feel any tenderness in any of the spots I was checking”

 

Excerpts from the Show

Vienna says that complaints of a

invariably respond to muscle release techniques applied to an out of place rib.

In this, the second half of the interview with Vienna, we also hear  how this links to

We also touch on psoas release for lower back pain.

 

Today’s Guest

Experienced massage therapist, and author of Stop the Pain: Your Hands-On Manual for Neck and Back Relief, Vienna Dunham Schmidt

 

Live Pain-free Eliminate Chronic Pain without Drugs or Surgery
Click the play button to listen to this episode now

Stabbing Pain between the Shoulder Blades

We hear that complaints of a stabbing pain between the shoulder blades invariably respond to ortho-bionomy release techniques applied to an out of place rib.

“In every case, when someone comes and says ‘I have a stabbing pain between the shoulder blades’, it has been because there’s a rib out of position”

Repetitive Strain Injury Back Muscles

Vienna tells the story of a client, who was a very successful hairdresser.

Her work meant that she would stand over her clients all day.

Years of repeating the same motions eventually led to the sudden onset of severe back pain

“That repetitive motion, that repetitive strain injury, it’s a thing … it had been building for years, decades. And then one day insult piled on top of injury, that rib hopped out of place”

Upper Back Pain and the Trapezius Muscle

We talk about stress and tension in the upper trapezius muscles.

Vienna finds that most people are surprised by how far up the torso the ribs extend.

In her experience, the top ribs can be pulled out of place by this excess tension in the upper traps.

“So you actually just need to release the muscles of that upper trapezius, which is so strong, it can actually lift the top three ribs out of position”

Vienna says that too much screen-time is a big part of the problem

“Almost everybody that comes to me … sits at a desk in front of a computer or sits on their cell phone, texting, you know, using devices is one of the most common things that leads to that tension up there”

 

 

Hi, I’m Iain Barker creator of Back Pain Liberation.

I got back pain young and it got worse over time. Like many others in this situation, I saw plenty of doctors and therapists – all to no avail.

In the end self-help worked best – it often does for bad backs. Now I train regularly, focus on what works, and don’t get back pain.

My goal is to share what I learned. To help you find a more effective way when treatment doesn’t hit the spot.

 

Thanks for Listening!

 

Do you feel tension or tenderness around the ribs or breastbone? Maybe there are cracks and klunks when you move?

Did you find a way to fix this problem? Leave a comment below.

To help out the show, click a link to iTunes, Stitcher or TuneIn:

  • Subscribe.
  • Leave an honest review.

Thanks to Vienna Dunham Schmidt for joining me this time to talk about rib out of place back pain.

Best,

Iain

 

 

Find more episodes of the Back Pain Liberation Podcast here

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Full Transcript – BPL22: Can a Rib out of Place Cause Back Pain?

Iain Barker
So this is something that you cover in some detail, quite a lot, is the idea of tense muscles, not getting enough blood flow, leading to pain. And what you’re trying to achieve is to let go some of that tension to increase the blood flow to that muscle to reduce the pain. That … I was kind of expecting. Something else, that you mentioned a lot, which I wasn’t expecting so much is; you talk about ribs, a lot.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Yes, yes I do. Actually, that has become the major focus of my work. And to my very great surprise, among the hundreds of people I’ve worked on on the table, only one that reported chronic back pain, said, you know, when I checked his ribs, he was the only one who said he didn’t feel any tenderness in any of the spots I was checking. And he was very muscular. He worked out all the time. And I think he was just a little bit impatient like ‘What’s this? I want’ you know ‘Give me some deep tissue massage.’ so I don’t know that it was a really good test. But that’s the only one that has said he didn’t have any ribs out of position when I just touched in the area. And so it’s been a great surprise. And I’d say, in every case, that when someone comes and says, ‘I have a stabbing pain between the shoulder blades.’ It has been, because there’s a rib out of position. So if I can share a story? A woman came in, who was in her 50s. And I didn’t know what to think if I could even help her. She came in with a walker, bent over grimacing in pain. And, you know, saying ‘It’s a 10.’ you know ‘I don’t know if I can even get on your table.’ And so we lowered it, she was able to get on. And her story was that she, eight months before, she was this very successful hairstylist. And she was training, you know, mentoring young women in it and just at the height of her career, and all of a sudden, one day she gets this stabbing pain by her shoulder blade. And can’t tell what it is can’t do anything to relieve it. And she ends up going to chiropractors and massage therapists and physical therapists and surgeons and ends up at Mayo Clinic. She went the full distance – that’s a famous clinic here in the United States.

Iain Barker
I’ve seen their website. Yeah,

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Exactly. So she ends up there, and they can’t figure out what it is. So she comes home, and, one day, ends up in the emergency room, and they give her oral medications and injected medications, and it’s not touching it at all. Off the charts, you know. And somebody says ‘Hey, let’s put a pain patch on this. Let’s try that.’ Don’t really tell her much about what it is. and by golly, it helps. And so she’s

Iain Barker
What is a pain patch?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Okay, yeah. So it’s actually got an a narcotic, an opioid in it. That goes through the skin

Iain Barker
Direct to the site of the pain. Okay

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Exactly. And that sounded, at the moment, like good news, like, ‘Wow, I can finally think and breathe and all this. Move.’ Until a week later. She’s addicted to it. Yes. And then Mayo Clinic says, ‘Hey, we will help you get over that addiction for just a month of your life and $40,000.’ Here in the States, we’ve got a particular problem; proliferation of opioid addiction. So it’s not a not a pretty picture, but so she’s on the table tells me this incredibly moving story. And the, one of the other really painful things to her emotionally was, you know, the doctor was saying, you know, you’re gonna have to live with this, it must all be in your head. And because the because of the words she chose, she said, it feels like someone is stabbing me. And that caused them to send her for a psych eval.

Iain Barker
Wow,

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

That was harsh.

Iain Barker
Can I just interject briefly, because I’ve got a passage from your book, which I’ve highlighted, which goes like this, ‘When a person is in chronic pain, they can feel very discounted, and frustrated, to have someone suggest that because there’s not been a physical cause for the pain found, the pain must therefore be all in their head, so to speak. This book is primarily about releasing the muscle tension that causes very real pain, whether the source of the tension is physical, mental, or emotional. And that yeah, that really kind of spoke to me, because I know what that feels like that frustration that you just described of someone who who can’t really get a concrete diagnosis. And despite going to lots of different people for help, and you know, this can be quite expensive as well.

And it’s just is frustrating. You feel like you’re not get getting anywhere.

And there must be something seriously wrong to cause all this. This pain.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Exactly.

Iain Barker
And yeah, no one seems to be taking it seriously, because they can’t find anything wrong. Yeah, that’s a position that I’m familiar with. And I’m sure plenty of other people are as well. So yeah, that resonates with me that passage in your book. Sorry to interrupt you, you were talking about your hairdresser. And I guess her actual job, her job of leaning over someone all the time, that is going to cause its own problems, isn’t it?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Iain you’ve nailed it!

Iain Barker
I’m sorry, I stole the punch-line there!

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

That is just perfect. Because it’s that repetitive motion, that repetitive strain injury, you know, it’s a thing. And so, you know, it had been building for her for years, decades. And then one day insult piled on top of injury, that rib hopped out of place, you know, was pulled into the backyard, and there it was crying in the rain, you know, and there was no,

no convincing it to come back inside to its proper home. Because now the stabilizing muscles who are doing a big favor, so it doesn’t go further awry. But they also are have become part of the issue. And so now we need to release some tension on the muscles. And I actually experienced it myself at some point, and didn’t find the resolution until I came across these methods. And I have that stabbing pain, it would sometimes only be nagging. And sometimes it could be pretty sharp. And I finally found that I could go and persuade my chiropractor to check my ribs. And he would use a forceful movement and it would be like, ‘Ah, yes!’

Iain Barker
Really?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Yeah. And yet, the surprising thing to me was the he wasn’t one who did soft tissue work. And so, you know, put a little Icy Hot type, you know, some kind of liniment on it. And I walked out the door. And one time I got in the car, and something with a movement I made; those tense, muscles pulled it right back out again.

Iain Barker
So as you were leaving?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

As I was leaving. Yeah

Iain Barker
That’s no good. Is it? If it doesn’t even last until you get home

I tried chiropractic treatment. And we also have osteopaths in the UK. And, you know, they sort of manipulated my back and there were lots of clunk and cracks. I never really felt that helped me at all.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

I did find relief. And if if I had, you know, ways that I could try to stretch it might last a few days, you know, but, but then this was like a game changer when I figured out and and with ribs, it’s odd as well, we, it’s surprising how high up they go. I’ll tell you that in a moment. But that one between the shoulder blades, I could, I finally figured out how to release that. And then found out that it was also it had been shifted on the front as well, where it attaches to the sternum to the breastbone

Iain Barker
You describe the ribs higher up in the chest as like bucket handles

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Yes.

Iain Barker
Which I thought was quite a nice description. So they’re kind of attached at each end, and kind of loop out around the chest.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Yeah. And it’s, it’s the thing, that kind of thing, because it’s a solid bone. It doesn’t matter whether it got pulled out by tension in the back or pushed out by a pressure on the front, you know, I had a friend fall onto a shovel and

impact a couple of ribs out of place. And then the muscles tighten around that. So it doesn’t matter how it happens a force or tension pulling it, shifting it out of position. But when they’re out on the front there, you have to tend to that as well. So I I talked about taking the whole tending to the whole path of the rib, because if it’s been out a long time, chances are the muscles along the entire path of the rib are unhappy.

Iain Barker
When I used to get back pain, I used to feel a lot of tension around the breastbone as well.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Yes.

Iain Barker
And sometimes they would be like a sort of, you know, clunking and cracking?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Yes.

Iain Barker
And I haven’t thought about that for a long time. But it came back to me when I read your book.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Exactly. So I encourage people to to, if they’ve got tension along the breastbone along the spine. There’s a rib attached to each of the thoracic vertebrae. And that’s how they’re numbered, actually, the ribs are numbered T1, you know, to match with the thoracic vertebrae. And so if they, you know, if there’s a way to check that, and I think the probably the most surprising one to me, is when I feel a knot, I used to feel it up between the neck and the shoulder, far as that line, and then between the collarbone and the shoulder blade. So can you picture that? If you go right in between those four landmarks?

Iain Barker
Yes.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Okay.

Iain Barker
Yeah.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

And listeners, if you’d reach up and feel that right now, if you have a knot in there, it often gets called a trigger point. And then someone doing their very best to help you might land on that with their thumb or their elbow, and make you run away or freeze and hope they think you’re dead.

Or it’s going to come off. And the trick is, that is not actually, to my experience. A muscle knot. It’s actually the first rib. You’re palpating the first rib. And so that’s not nice to bruise a rib. So you actually just need to release the muscles of that upper trapezius, which is so strong, it can actually lift the top three ribs out of position.

Iain Barker
Okay

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

So its powerful. So keep that upper trapezius happy.

Iain Barker
And that is a common place where stress and tension is expressed, in the upper traps, isn’t it?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Almost everybody that comes to me that sits at a desk in front of a computer or sits on their cell phone, texting, you know, using devices is one of the most common things that leads to that tension up there. And so in my book, I mentioned, my best strategy for that is called shrug, chicken wing lean.

Iain Barker
So I saw that yeah, that’s in my notes here. That’s nice, this is an exercise is it one thing? You go from the shrug to the chicken wing to the lean, have I understood it correctly?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

That is exactly right. And it’s, it’s not as much an excercise, which denotes to me using a muscle, as it is a release. So you’re actually putting it at rest. So you can actually use your other hand to lift that shoulder up, if you can, and then shrug and lean into the wall. And then immediately, a lot of people start feeling the warmth, his blood comes in.

Iain Barker
Yeah.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

And as you bring it back down, you give a little tug on the elbow to stretch that out a little now getting some space where it’s been all tight. And it’s amazing; that knot will actually begin to recede as that rib goes back toward home, as the muscle stop pulling it out of position.

Iain Barker
Okay, and you also talk about releasing? Well, a couple of sections before that you’ve got release your core. And this is about the psoas.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Yes, yes. And I’ll I’ll refer to Liz coke with that one. k o ch. I got to take a class from her. And it is absolutely profound. The importance of having your psoas released. I was just working on someone yesterday who said ‘You know, when I was a teenager, I used to run and think how can people stand this?’ He said on his from his inner thigh up through his groin would be so painful, he could hardly take another step. And that’s where the psoas has attaches. And it also attaches to the five lumbar vertebra on the inside, the stomach side. So low back pain. Yeah, think ‘Psoas’ think ‘let’s get this released.’ And so yeah, in the book is a little picture of, you know, we give a little demonstration in the videos of how to lay on your back and release. But Liz has two books about that ‘core release’ and ‘psoas book’ that really can give some details on how to bring relief to that. And then that changes the whole hip flexor scene, and the low back in the hip joints. So that is worth looking at if you’ve got pain in those areas.

Iain Barker
Yeah, it really is quite astonishing how much you can do to help yourself with this kind of problem, isn’t it?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

You know, I, I say that the person themselves is actually the most likely to be successful, because they are the insider. They have the they know exactly where it is and how much pressure it’s going to take. And so if you just have a few tools, yeah, you can likely completely change the course. And I also speak of a there’s the negative pain spiral. And I mean it it’s cycles down fast, right?

Iain Barker
Yes,

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

You’ve been there. And

Iain Barker
Yes,

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

if you can just reverse the direction. It’s like, it’s like a corkscrew, you’ll come back up out of that, and go on the upward happy cycle. And just by taking matters into your own hands, I I actually was so delighted when you contacted me about being on your podcast, because

Iain Barker
Oh, good!

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Yeah. Your audience is exactly my audience.

Iain Barker
Fantastic, I think you’re right

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

And so just people who are at wit’s end, with the ‘somebody else trying to help me’ which hasn’t worked. And are looking toward what they can do for themselves, because they are going to determine

Iain Barker
Exactly. I can’t remember exactly the phrase you used. But it was something along the lines of, you’re the person, you know, the person who’s suffering the pain.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Yeah

Iain Barker
Who’s got the the the most to gain from making it work, you’re going to be the most motivated, like, you have the vested interestIn making it work. I like it, that you put a nice quote at the beginning of each chapter. And I’ll whizz back to the introduction. And you’ve got a quote from Tony Robbins. Where he says ‘Change happens, when the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of change.’ I think that’s very profound. Because we don’t like to do new things do we?

We want to maybe get rid of the pain, but you know, ‘I don’t want to do anything different.’ ‘I want someone to treat me, I want to take a pill’ for example, maybe have some sort of procedure, and it will just be fixed for me. But life doesn’t really – well, sometimes life works like that – But I think for chronic pain, that’s just not the way it goes, is it?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

No. I have not among all the people that I’ve interacted with about that, that has not been the case and those who have opted for surgery, somebody dangled a carrot out there and said, ‘This is your answer.’ And unfortunately, many traded one pain for another. And I gotta tell you Iain, Oh! There’s some aggressive treatments out there now. The whole top rib thing is, I think now called Thoracic Outlet Syndrome. And I

Iain Barker
It’s a syndrome now.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Yeah, yeah. And I can hardly even say it. The new remedy is to remove the top rib.

Oh, yeah. And you know, what people are saying their symptoms are with that is tingling in their fingers. Yeah. And numbness and pain down the arm. And such as that. And here’s how it happens. The top rib attaches right below the collarbone. So if you want to reach up and feel

Iain Barker
I’m doing it. I’m so suggestible!

I’m poking away at the top of my chest!

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

and so then just drop down right below that, and you’ll feel another hard surface. And that’s your first rib, and feel if that’s tender push on that. Do you feel tenderness there?

Iain Barker
I don’t actually no. I’ll feel pretty good there.

But I did train this morning, as I do most days. So when you know, my, my training is based around, well, posture, relaxation and movement. So I try to avoid being too tense.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Exactly! That is beautiful. In fact, I’m planning to book one of your taster calls.

Iain Barker
That would be brilliant. Although I might feel a little bit nervous.

You know, you being a professional and all.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

well, we’ll see how it goes, You are professional at what you do, you are helping people that qualifies you.

But the one that we had pulled up against the collarbone. That That doesn’t sound too terrible if you just think of two bones touching each other unless it’s in the knee, you know, bone on bone. But up here, that doesn’t sound so bad. Until you know that the nerves to the arm, the brachial plexus, whole string of nerves go into the throughout the arm is between them. And that’s what’s getting pinched. So remove the rib, or you can relax the muscles and let it drop back down into its happy place. [Yeah}. And give space to nerves and blood vessels again.

Iain Barker
Yeah. To me that that that’s no choice.

Wow, that’s amazing.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Truly,

Iain Barker
I’m just looking through my notes. And I found another term, which was new to me. Thermography.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Oh, yes, I’d love to tell you what that is.

It’s imaging with a digital infrared. So it’s digital, infrared thermal imaging DITI. And it can be used by contractors to take a picture of your house. And if there’s red around your windows, then your heat is leaking out. You need to insulate, right? So in medical imaging, it is so sensitive, that it’s to .01 degree of temperature change.. And so in its particular application in the office that I was working in, when I learned about it, it was for breast imaging, and it’s a non radiation, non compression, mammogram alternative. And so all

issues that can happen in the breasts are accompanied with temperature change. So it can spot blood vessels as they’re coming into service, a brand new growth. So it’s it’s quite a bit earlier than some alternatives, which I will not name that are looking for a one centimeter growth that is has now been growing for seven to 10 years. So I I’d like to say that’s not early detection. [Ok]. So anyway, that’s the thermography.

Iain Barker
And is it used in chronic pain?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

It can be. And so one man who had chronic pain in around below his knee. And he had, you know, had been to vein doctors and his regular doctor, and they’re just saying, ‘No, there is nothing here’. And he said, ‘You know what, my veins are on fire, I beg to differ,’ and pain, pain, pain. And he found out about the thermography. And the image showed the exact Lacy pattern of the veins in it, they were red hot. And he was able to take that to the doctor, and then they believed him. So it can demonstrate Yes, there’s actually inflammation here.

So it can help pinpoint.

Iain Barker
Yeah, okay, good. I’ve scrolled down, we were talking about chapter six, psoas and the upper trapezius release, and other things. I’m just looking now at the chapter seven, which is getting towards the end of the book – Moving Forward.

And a quote at the beginning of that chapter, ‘physical well being necessitates listening to what you already know. And then taking it seriously enough to act accordingly. When you wake up and feel the impulse to arch your back and stretch, and exhale with a loud sigh – do it.’

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Exactly. [Yeah.] So just that, I think it’s worth saying that even if the messages are primarily pain right now, for some of our listeners, that it would be very important for them to take the risk, and open up to hearing the messages so that they can tend to the issues, and then begin to have more of the pleasure messages.

Iain Barker
Right. So you, kind of, ask yourself questions about, well, for example, pain or other areas of your life, am I right?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

That’s exactly right. So just listening, and, and then acting on it, caring, caring for yourself. And, you know, even for myself, I have not over the course of my life until this past year, taken self care very seriously. And I think maybe especially for mothers, [yeah] you know, where you have these little, when they’re babies, they’re helpless little beings completely dependent on you, you know, for feeding and comfort and so on. And there’s, there’s just such a demand there. [Yes,] that we can give ourselves away, lose ourselves, I lost myself for a number of years. And so I would like to just say, to your listeners, dear friends, I give you permission to take care of yourself. If If you thought that that was selfish, I’ll refer to the little quote, when you get on an airplane, put your own oxygen mask on first, please. Because when when your cup is empty, you have nothing left to give. And if you’ll take the time to let your cup fill, even to the point of overflowing. It’s it’s so much more a sweet drink when it’s out of the overflow, than out of the dregs at the bottom of the cup. [Yeah,] so that’s my, my encouragement.

Iain Barker
Quite right. There’s no requirement to, you know, put everyone else first and neglect your, your own well being

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

I’m a person of faith. And I have to say, That’s not even righteous.

To give yourself so completely that you die in the process, you know, you don’t get to live to your potential if you’re in pain. And especially once you know there’s a solution, if you choose not to take care of it. [Yeah,] you don’t get brownie points for that.

Iain Barker
One of the what you call comfort tools, you’ve kind of mixed them together, or you group them together, prayer, meditation and mindfulness. And the sort of breakthrough

thing for me was Tai Chi/Qigong. And meditation was was part of that, you know, a very important part for me. And you, you’ve just mentioned that you’re a person of faith. And it’s only I’ve only really recently began to sort of make the connection as to why people often say that they’re at peace. [Yes.] When they’re

praying, talking to God. [Yes.] And I think it’s a very, I’ve just really put the connection together recently. That it’s, it’s a similar kind of state of mind, I would think, [yes,] prayer and meditation,

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

I would say so. And I think part of the what’s going on physically with that, is that we are reversing that negative spiral. And exactly, we’re starting with the sympathetic nervous system that’s fight flight freeze, and going toward the parasympathetic, which is rest and digest. So I heard a brilliant little word picture the other day. And the person said, when you’re running from the saber tooth tiger, you may see the golden apple on the tree. But If you pick it you’re lunch!

just getting to the point where I mean, like even, even though there’s no Tiger anymore, we, we can still hang out, you know, we can remember a past emergency and still be living there and feel like we don’t have time to pick the apple. But in that meditation, prayer space, where we give ourselves room and we we be in the now it’s not the tiger that used to be there. And it’s not the tiger that may be there in the future. But we’re right here right now. We can look around the room and go, ‘Okay, no, Tiger. All right. I’m going to pick the apple.’

We can afford to be at peace.

Iain Barker
Yes. Very powerful thing.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Yes, indeed.

Iain Barker
Okay.

Is there anything else that we’ve missed?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

one of your questions that I really liked was what are some myths about back pain? And okay, I wanted to just mention a few of those. If we have time,

Iain Barker
please do yeah. Yeah, take as long as you need.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Okay. So one of the primary myths that I bump up against, in some treatment options is no pain, no gain. [Yeah,] and even at the gym, I mean, I see people working out with that in mind and rolling using hard foam rollers to roll out there IT bands with tears in their eyes, you know, and so that the kind of the corollary to that would be pain is gain. So yeah, I have people come in, and just all but demand deep pressure. And I just, you know, I give them the names of other massage therapists. Like that is not who I am. And I have another another path. And so the body during those kind of painful interactions, be it at the gym, or during a deep pressure situation is it’s thinking ‘I need to fight off or run away or freeze.’ And that’s just flooding the body with stress hormones.

Iain Barker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I have had quite hard messages that have been actually painful. And the body just -well my body – just tenses up.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

that’s me too. And I made the appointment and I paid for it.

Iain Barker
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I won’t be doing this again?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Yeah, exactly. So with deepest respect to deep pressure massage therapists, and those who think they benefit from it, that’s fine. But [yeah, absolutely.] This is this other thing is my way. So. And [yeah,] another myth is that hope killer of ‘You’re just gonna have to live with it.'[ Yeah.] And so when a medical authority says that, you know, [yeah,] they just take it as some people take it as truth and just hunker down to suffer and maybe try different substances, like you said, in an effort to numb the pain. I don’t think a lot of your audience is that. I think they’ve come past, you know, through that stage, if it’s a stage, and are on the other side looking for answers that they can implement.

Iain Barker
I hope so. Yeah. This is the, this is the point. Really?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Yeah. So they’ve decided not to let that prophecy create their reality of [Exactly, yeah,] you’re gonna have to live with it,

Iain Barker
You’re good with the words.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

So they’ve, our listeners are walking down the road with you, and finding answers that can implement, they can implement to change the trajectory of their life. And so I’m, I’m really thrilled to be here. And I also wanted to just mention, sometimes people, you know, we can be so focused on our own pain, and we forget the implication for others. And so the person actually, that I had in mind when I wrote the book, had had a 15 year battle with chronic pain, with the stabbing pain in between her shoulder blades. And it was such that there were days she’d have to stay in bed, and she couldn’t get to her son’s ball games. And [yeah,] you know, it affected her children.

Iain Barker
I think this is not uncommon, where it gets that bad for people.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Exactly. And, and I think her children understood even if they were disappointed, but she was on her own guilt trip feeling like she was a bad parent. [Yeah]. And so I that’s, that’s part of my motivation to help people get past this because they want to be there for their children. Yes. And then in her case, or significant other. Yeah, she couldn’t be present in that relationship. Because your brain and emotions were consumed with overwhelming pain. [Yeah], constantly. And then the whole family because finances were challenged, as you said, [yeah,] it is not cheap, to especially, you know, at least in the States, those alternative things are not covered by insurance. So it just is just a bad situation. But I really want to offer hope out there for people that if you feel like, your pain has taken you into a place of great loss in relationships, and finances, and such, if you have pain like we’re describing today. I know just what to do. And I’d love to help you. And you can start just start with the book. If you need further help. I, I love your pattern of offering a taster. And I also offer a discovery call of 30 minutes and people can schedule that at the website as well.

Iain Barker
Okay, so is this a phone call?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Yes, actually, it’s a video phone call. I [ok,] I happen to use zoom. But I want people to be able to, I need them to be able to point to where that the pain is. And [yeah,] and watch their face and so on as they’re doing it to see if the strategies that have been put in my hands might be helpful for them.

Iain Barker
Cool. Yeah. Okay, so we’ll put all the links and all the details for everything we talked about [perfect] on the blog. So that’s going to be on the Back Pain, Liberation blog, and this is going to be episode number. Well, I think it’s gonna be a couple of episodes. Now. We’ve been talking for over an hour. Okay, so be episodes 21 and 22. So yeah, fantastic.

It’s been lovely talking to you. [My pleasure]. And I’m looking to get these episodes out soon. So this week coming Wednesday, hopefully and then the following week. So yeah, it’s going to be a quick turn around this time. Awesome.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

All right. Well, thanks for all you do. Iain

Iain Barker
Well thank you, thanks for sending your book me I did enjoy reading it, I thought it was really interesting.

Some things that I already already knew. And I I’ve already put into practice myself. It it kind of explained them in a different way, which resonated with me, and I enjoyed reading. And there were some other things which were new to me, which of course I enjoyed reading as well. So yeah, I liked your book. Oh, it’s, we’ve already said it’s out on both Amazon and on your own website, isn’t it?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

That’s correct.

Iain Barker
I saw it had some nice reviews on Amazon as well. I just checked today. It’s got three five star reviews. So that’s pretty good. And

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

it it actually just published a week ago. It came out last Thursday on Amazon.

Iain Barker
Well, that’s not bad. [Yeah!] In the first week.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Exactly.

Iain Barker
And you know, 100% five star reviews when I looked so yeah, fantastic.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Very encouraging.

Iain Barker
Absolutely. Yeah. So thanks for coming on the show.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Certainly my great pleasure. And if people have questions, they can also email me at vienna@stopthepainbook.com

Iain Barker
You’re on Facebook as well, aren’t you?

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Yes.

Iain Barker
And and is that also under the stop the pain,

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

stopthe pain book. And I haven’t done a lot with that yet. I was focused on getting the book published, but I’ll be adding some more to that here shortly. I want to make that place that people can ask questions as well.

Iain Barker
Yeah, sure. Yeah.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

Beautiful.

Iain Barker
Okay.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

All right.

Iain Barker
Thanks for coming on the show. Lovely talking to you.

Vienna Dunham Schmidt

My pleasure. And all the best to you out there in listener land.

Iain Barker
Okay, bye bye. All the best.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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