You mentioned the disadvantage of ill health, particularly for young people, in the workplace.

Yeah. Because I mean depending on the type of pain you have, it can be incredibly disruptive. I know in some workplaces, some things are coming more common. So a common one for back pain is like the standing desks which you must have seen are becoming more and more common.

Trying to help people who have back pain and you know, a lot of those are in offices with primarily young personnel and yeah, people are more conscious of the damages of Just sitting at a desk all day. Yeah, but there are lots of other. There are lots of other ways other than just sitting at a desk that you’re pain can influence your career possibilities. Yeah. One of the most obvious being like, if you are in quite a lot of pain, you might not be able to work at all. Like, it’s not very many people with chronic pain, seek disability, but which is understandable, because you know, people want to work people want to earn a living and yes, feel useful. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And so you when you’re young as well, so I’m sort of all over the map in this but when you’re young, you are surrounded by people who have expectations of, well, if a job comes up, I can do that job or you know, like, even if it’s, you know, working McDonald’s standing up all day, and you just have sort of an expectation that you’d be able to do that. Yes. And you might not be able to. Yeah. And when you’re in a, I think it gets a bit easier when, when you’re established in a workplace and you sort of as you get older, maybe you start experiencing back problems or arthritis related problems. And yeah, having that be something that sort of, you’ve already got an established relationship in a company or a workplace. The people around you know, you, you’ve established yourself, you know, of what your normal work product is like. Um, and it’s easier to say, Hey, you know, I need an ergonomic chair, or Hey, look, I’m having a hard time carrying these heavy boxes. Yeah, and there are lots of workplaces that will be able to help you figure that out, or that will have other you know, employees who are going through similar things and It becomes more of like a company wide problem rather than your problem. Yeah. But when you’re young, there’s just the expectation that you’ll be able to do whatever you put your mind to. Whatever you’re prepared to work for.

Yes, exactly. Yeah.

Yeah. You just might not have those abilities. Yeah, I think yeah, I think the example I give in the book is like, um, you know, if you’re 18, and you’re considering going to med school, but you have chronic pain, like you really need to have a serious rethink, because think about the training the doctors go through. The back to back shifts, it can be night shift, it can be 14-16 hours on your feet on the go, you know, skipped meals, just like a brutal work schedule. Yeah. very demanding. And you have to think if you’re, you know, looking down the barrel of that’s what I would need to do. Like Am I going to be able to do that. Realistically,

and you have to do that. And you have to be take responsibility for all the complicated decisions that you make for those 16 hours that you’re on duty. Yeah. Which could potentially have very serious consequences. I think it’s a bit of a ridiculous system actually putting people under that much pressure. Yeah,

Yeah, it’s not going to bring out the best in people. So, no, but yeah, it’s, it’s something that I am all too aware that there are workplaces and bosses who if you go to them and say, Look, you know, I have this chronic pain problem and I’m struggling to do X. They’re just gonna say, I don’t care. Yeah. But that’s something that, again, you’re going to have to accept might be a possibility. Which is, it’s hard. It’s brutal. I mean, having to think about maybe I won’t be able to work in that job or keep my job is scary. Especially here in you know, in the States when your health care coverage is tied to your employment. Okay? That’s that’s just a brutal thing to have to face if like if I say I need help, and they fire me, I’ve also lost my health benefits. Wow. But which is Yeah, which is why I’m terrified of the states like I would never ever live in the States. It’s just too scary thought.

Yeah. Okay.

But yeah, it’s, it’s a difficult situation and you kind of have to have a few different ideas in mind of like, how you would manage it if you know, you weren’t able to do the job you’ve previously done?

Yeah. Okay, part three of the book. Tools and therapies. So you start off with medications and Yeah, something that sort of comes up every now and again, but I think it’s kind of definitely worth mentioning, again, is the pharmacist, because they, they have a very sort of specialist knowledge than

they do. Um, and honestly, I haven’t really thought about using pharmacists as like a tool in my health care until I suddenly had a very good pharmacist. Okay. Like, it’s just not something that occurred to me like I went to, you know, boots in Britain for years. And I went to like the equivalent over here, which is called shoppers. And you just, it’s any number of interchangeable people behind the counter. Yeah, and you just you hand in your slip and you get your prescription and that’s it. And I didn’t know there was more to it than that until I moved and our local pharmacy now is one of those little like, say mom and pop shops, but it’s like a family run business. Yeah. And it’s not a big brand. You know, they introduced themselves to me and I was like, What? It’s like, hello.

I came here to get my prescription. Why are you telling me your name?

Yeah. And like having them say, Well, you’ve got a few different prescriptions and you know, we just want to make sure you knew who we were and just need any help managing them. Brilliant. Yeah. And I was like, I didn’t know you did that. And yeah, like being able to talk to them about your meds. How they’re supposed to work. Yeah, like how often you’re supposed to take them which can get complicated if you’re on multiple meds, sometimes they sometimes some you have to take with food some You can’t eat within an hour taking. Like it can get complicated, right? Yes. So yeah, it’s um, they are the people to ask all of those questions about medications and most people Don’t think about it or realize they can do that. Which is hard if you’re, you know, your nearest pharmacy is Boots, And every time you go in, it’s someone different. And that can be really tough. But even the people who are that even if you don’t know them, you can still ask them those questions and they will be able to give you an answer.

They will probably be quite willing to as well.

Yeah. I mean, it’s their job. like yeah, it’s their whole job is to make medicines and like give them to the patients and make sure the patients know how to use them. Um, so yeah, I think that’s a really underused resource. Yeah. And thing that I’d say is like I know in like boots and shoppers and thinking the American ones like Walgreens and what have you. There are quite often just sales stuff behind the counter at the pharmacy. Yes, just because

There will be a pharmacist somewhere

Yes, there will be will be a pharmacist somewhere; probably in a room behind the counter making pills, and or you know, dispensing pills or whatever it is they need to be doing at that time. But all you need to do is ask, Can I speak to the pharmacist? I mean, then you can ask whatever questions you need to ask and get a straight answer and keep track of what you’re supposed to be doing. Yeah.

Good tip. I like that. Yeah,

yeah. Not Not everyone’s as lucky as having you know, like a quality, you know, independent shop right around the corner. But like, there’s going to be a full time pharmacist wherever you go. So,

yeah. I guess it’s about thinking of the possibilities and trying to find whatever resources you can available to you.

Yeah, it’s um, yeah, I feel like living in chronic pain in general is an exercise in problem solving.

Yeah, absolutely,

yeah, you just and some of that stuff. You’re never gonna think on your own, and sometimes you might think same thing, huh? That’s clever. And you know, and not many other people have done it. And yeah, that’s, that’s just how it works.

Yeah. Do your own research. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Another thing that you he didn’t seem to, like very much like the exercise and the training you which is not something that you are naturally drawn to, shall we say? And I got the impression that it was a similar kind of similar thing with mindfulness and meditation. Yeah,

that’s one of those annoying things where you kind of you don’t really want to think it works because it seems so hokey right of like some Yeah. Oh, you breathe through the pain. And it’s like, my automatic reaction even now even when I know that it does help and it does work. Is still tell them to bugger off. It’s like,

I’d rather go back to the pharmacist and get some pills.

It’s like, it sounds like it shouldn’t work. And it sounds like it’s just some like New Age nonsense. Yeah. But yeah, mindfulness for me, it’s really it’s not so much about like the breathing techniques or you know, or yoga and things like that. It’s, it’s more about just being aware of your own body, and what’s happening in your own body and how you are emotionally responding to that. Because it’s very easy to hurt, and then get grumpy. And then you feel worse and to not to get into that cycle without really realizing you’re doing it. And mindfulness is putting a step between you hurt and you get grumpy. You get grumpy and saying, okay, I hurt. That doesn’t have to define my mood. Yeah, and having the space to do that is for me, it’s just a mindfulness exercise. And that does help because pain and suffering are not the same thing.

That’s an interesting concept.

Well, yeah, cuz well, like pain is physical. Suffering is your reaction to pain, like your emotional takeaway and how you psychologically respond to it. And you can be in a pain without suffering from it and being depressed and miserable, angry and anxious and, like the pain can exist without you making your mood and your psychological outlook based on it.

Yeah,

yeah, I think I mean, that’s not that’s not the easiest thing to practice. Um, it’s a very natural response to say, Well, I hurt and this sucks and I’m grumpy. But you Yeah, it’s once you’ve sort of given yourself the room and the time to think I hurt, and that’s bad. But I’m okay. And I can still do X, Y and Zed as you know, then you’re not in a suffering place, then you’re in OK it hurts, but there are other things as well.

Yeah. That doesn’t ,,,,,, there can be pain, but that doesn’t necessarily have to lead to anxiety and anger, and the depression and the other negative emotions that we’re talking about. Yeah,

Exactly. And that’s, that’s like an ongoing lesson that everyone has to learn because, yeah, it can be easy, or you can, you know, work to get a handle on a chronic pain problem. And feel pretty well regulated and of yourself and sort of know that you’re dealing with it pretty well and then something can change. It’s like you’re back to square one. Yeah. And it’s, um, it’s important not to beat yourself up. Yeah, about being in pain or to look for causes or blame. Like it can be easy to say, Well, I must have done something wrong, because now, you know, my back hurts much more. And that’s just compounding your own anxiety and anger. And yeah, yeah, it’s making making you suffer more, and you don’t need to suffer more. Yeah.

Very true. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Very important. And you’ve got a couple of meditation practices in the book.

Yes. Yeah. Really, fairly beginner’s ones of just like, here’s some simple breathing and how you can try and consciously relax your muscles. Yeah. Yeah. Which is a useful skill to have, right?

Yeah, really. Yeah. Yeah, I think it makes a huge difference. Yeah. And then you talk about some, well, quite a lot of different alternative therapies.

Yeah, I mean, the, the range of available alternative therapies seems to be changing all the time. So I’ve tried to be fairly exhaustive in my list. And not too, not too judgmental about them as well. Right. There are definitely some that have more scientific basis than others. Um, and my personal sort of compass is that I tend to sort of laugh at the holistic, you know, New Age type of therapies and put my faith more in more established scientific treatments. But truth is, it doesn’t really matter. Like those distinctions to me are a bit arbitrary, in the face of does it help? Yeah, and if it helps, this is the

Yeah, this is the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Isn’t it? Either it helps, or it doesn’t. Yeah.

And it might be that some things help that you’re like that there’s no possible way this could be helping. I don’t understand why. Yeah, it doesn’t make any sense. There’s some things that you know, everyone else has tried and thinks is great. And it doesn’t work for your body. Yeah. And yeah, like, number one. Does it help? That’s it if it helps. Great. Do it. Yeah,

absolutely. Yeah. You talk about retraining the nervous system, as well.

Yeah. Which is a little bit like, I mean, the exercise and the mindfulness, and all that all feeds into that concept of connecting with your nervous system and understanding it and figuring out ways to teach it pleasure, for want of a better word like it can be easy to be in chronic pain and just feel kind of crappy about yourself and your body. And you know, just be like, Oh, why me? And yeah, this hurts so much and focus on that. And I think, and research has shown that maintaining positive stimuli helps reduce pain. So it’s teaching your body that things can feel good. And you’re like retreading, those, those grounds again and again, so your nervous system learns that it can feel relaxed and it can feel good and it can feel pain free. Because that will help not just lessen your pain in general, but it also helps psychologically when you’re in pain. Because it’s not just like, I’ve always been in pain and there is no relief. You know, oh god, why me? It’s okay. It’s hurts now, but I felt great. You know, last week when I went to that massage and you know, that was lovely. And you can remember those good things and hold on to them.

Yes. Yeah, because it felt good last week. It can feel good next week.

Yeah. It’s it’s not quite so much of the all or nothing attitude.

Life’s terrible Why am I in terrible pain all the time.

Yeah.

It’s about being a little bit more open minded, you know, focusing on the positive, I suppose.

Yes, exactly. Yeah. Which is why I find support groups actually kind of a weird like they can be kill or cure I think a little bit because there are lots of really amazing support groups where you can go and it just gives you that little bit of perspective you need right it gets you out of that, you know, woe is me and it’s terrible and always will be, because

My doctor’s useless and no one understands.

Yeah, you realize it’s not just you. Yeah. And that that perspective can really, really help. And you know, you can learn a lot of useful tricks from other people who are going through the same thing. Yeah, but on the other hand, there are definitely some support groups, that it’s a bit like screaming into the void. Just everyone wants the chance to have a good complain. And then they’re done. And that venting is valid, but it’s not going to get you anywhere. No, it doesn’t solve anything.

Yeah. I I’ve seen this a lot. Yeah, I, you know, I, I don’t want to criticize, but it almost seems that some people are not really interested in hearing anything positive or Any, any kind of positive steps that they can take? They almost react angrily Yeah. To any sort of suggestions,

Which I think is is actually another form of denial like, yeah, they want, like, they have felt like out of control of what’s happening to their own body. So just gone well, I’m completely out of control of it. And nothing I can do can possibly help you and anyone saying any different is, you know, either doesn’t understand or doesn’t know, like hasn’t experienced what they’re experiencing or is you know minimizing them or shaming them or whatever. And that is a fine line right there are on times and it’s okay to get angry and upset and to want to vent a bit. But wallowing isn’t yeah isn’t helpful to you or to the people around you. They’re going to get sick of it really quickly.

Yeah. Totally. Planning for the future.

Yeah, which is hard, hard to do, hard to do you if you don’t have chronic pain? It is Yeah. Cuz like, especially like all the different uncertainties that everyone faces and you know, financial planning and family planning and all of those things and then you have to add the unpredictability of am I going to be able to, yeah, um, and that’s tough. But it’s again, somewhere where knowing your priorities is crucial. Because if you sort of know your priorities, and you know, okay, look, I like my job and my job is great, and I’m okay to put my energy into it now. But really long term from my life. What I want is kids, that you have a better idea of where to put your energies which are probably limited and what you want to focus on so that when pain does come up, you’re not worrying about Okay, is it going to affect my job you’re worrying about Okay, what how’s it affecting my long term goals? Yeah. With Yeah. And you might have to give up some of those long term goals or, you know, learn to accept something different. And that’s also hard. But, yeah, I think all anyone can do is make the best of what they have on any given day. Yeah. And if you’re doing that, then you’re doing as much as you can. Yeah. Yeah,None of it’s easy, right?

No, no, I mean, life’s, as you say, life’s tough enough for everyone. But if you throw in your being in chronic pain, then it makes it even more difficult does.

It does but it is helpful to remember that everyone has their own stuff. Everyone has their own problems that to them seem like the biggest problems in the world. Yes, everyone is going through something It’s sort of amazing, actually, the number of people like since the book came out just the number of people who I would consider friends and I know reasonably well, who’ve sort of turned around go, Oh, well, I have this chronic pain problem, or I’ve given your book to my mom, because she has this really bad problem. And

You didn’t know.

I didn’t know and it’s one of those things that everyone has something and there are obviously, you know, variations and grades of how terrible it is. If someone’s dying of leukemia, that’s obviously a lot more serious. But yes, everyone has something and just giving them a break and giving yourself a break can do a lot.

Yeah. And as you say, having a positive plan of action and a positive mindset. It sounds a little bit cliched when I say it like that, but it makes a huge difference doesn’t it

It does Because the only way you can make any changes is if you think about what changes you want to make. And figure out a way to do that. If you’re exactly if you’re just looking at where you are, and going, I don’t like this. How is anything going to change? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think it’s a tough lesson for all of us have. We are the only ones who are responsible for our bodies, right? Like, I’m the only person who is in charge of my body. And so it’s my job to look after it. Yeah. And if I have to do that, whether I like it or not.

Yes. Very true.

It’s so i don’t think… i think perhaps you’re right. The having a positive attitude can sound a little hokey, but I would say like, just being determined. Yes. Like, just yeah, you just have to sort of say, Well, if it’s going to get, I’m going to do everything I can to make it better. It might not work. Dammit, I’m going to try.

Yes. I think that’s kind of half the battle right there.

Yeah, I would agree. Um, because, again, there’s no judgment in this statement because I lived in the place of just pretend it doesn’t exist and everything will be fine for a really long time. But you have to realize there’s a problem and decide to do something about it.

Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And,

yeah. Once you’ve done that, then you’re most of the way there. You’re right.

Okay, I think we have, well, we’ve been talking for an hour and a half.

okay.

And I think we’ve come to a bit of a natural conclusion there. We’ve covered most of what I was planning to talk about. Is there anything that that we’ve missed or that you think we should add?

I think the only thing I would add would be like a stress for your listeners on the importance of finding the right doctor. Okay. Yep, sounds like sounds a bit odd because most people don’t think they have a choice in their doctor. Like you go to your local family doctor and you know, your GP and that’s who you see, and if they refer you to a specialist, that’s the specialist you go and see them to know that that isn’t true. In most medical systems, are not sure what it is in Sweden, but I know in the UK and Canada in the States, you can ask for a different doctor. Which is something that quite a lot of people in chronic pain might have to do because because of the level of disbelief they face, you know, if a doctor orders an X ray on your back and it doesn’t show anything, they might just say, Okay, well, you look healthy. You’re fine, you know, off you go. Yeah. And that’s that’s not helping you find a find a way to manage it or to really do anything to set your mind at ease either. Yeah.

You mentioned the attitude. I don’t know if it’s something you came across personally, but the attitude of some doctors that someone in chronic pain is just drug seeking, basically.

Yeah. Unfortunately, that’s a lot more common over this side of the pond for Okay, reasons. Yeah, it’s I’ve been accused of that. I’ve been led in a, you know, am 3am on a cold winter’s night with gallstones and being told because I have a history of chronic pain and I’m on other meds being told. Yeah, you’re you’re faking it. You just want some drugs.

Gall stones. Wow. You have been, in the wars, haven’t you? I’ve I’ve never had experienced that. But I know people who’ve had gall stones and I I know that it’s intensely painful

It is it’s brutal. And like hearing someone tell you you’re faking it when you’re in the middle of that is gutting. Yeah. I mean, it’s it’s so offensive. But a lot of people have to face that here. It’s because there has been, you know, so much focus on the opioid crisis. Yes. Especially before I mean, marijuana is legal here in Canada now. it’s recreationally legal now.

Wow. Yeah. So it’s, there’s no criminal offense for possession of marijuana in any circumstance. I

I think it’s, I think there’s, like, volume limits like, okay, yeah,You can’t be carrying round like five pounds of weed. But I think you’re, you’re allowed to grow your own plants, but there’s a maximum number you can grow. So it’s definitely a personal use.

Yeah. Okay. That’s interesting. What else? How long Is that been the case?

Oh, not that long. It’s been medically legal. What the entire time I’ve lived here, but recreation, I think it was last summer.

Okay. And how’s that worked out?

I think quite well in general, because smoking was already banned in basically all public places. Yeah. So it’s not like suddenly everyone’s smoking weed everywhere.

Okay, so you’re not allowed to walk down the street smoking?

Oh, I don’t think.

Sorry. I’m quizzing you a lot about the Canadian legal system.

I don’t think you are because you’re not allowed to walk down the street with an open beer. They have quite strict rules here about like what you’re allowed to do in public. Yeah. But I mean, you’re very, you’re completely legal to, you know, sit in your home or a business that has permitted it and smoke or vape or do whatever it is that you want to do. Yeah, and that change, I think has, has helped quite a lot. Because Canada I think is fairly forward in the discussions about drug use and different kinds of drugs. And you know, prescription weed has been legal here for a long time. But I know in the States, it’s still very hit and miss. Like, I can’t like even if I was traveling to a state where weed was legal, I could not travel across the border with weed. Um, so it’s, it’s all a bit complicated. But yeah, like, especially with the opioid stuff, drug seeking behavior is is definitely considered a big problem. And if you are a patient who has maybe had a few tests done and nothing showed up, or has a chronic problem that doesn’t hasn’t had an easy to pinpoint cause. It’s very easy for doctors to look at you and go well you must just want the drugs. Yeah. And that’s, that’s very unpleasant. And yeah, the range of what you can get from your doctor can I mean and the range of causes to want ask for another doctor can be anywhere from that to that they’re just not listening to you. But whatever reasons you have for being uncomfortable, you can do something about it. You definitely don’t have to just sit with a person who doesn’t believe you or doesn’t trust you or is telling you that your experience is false. Even even with GPS, you can request another GP, it might be a bit more process like I know in Canada, like you have to submit a request to the medical oversight board to get assigned a different GP just because they’re also busy. There’s a shortage, but it’s still possible. If you have a reason if you’re saying look, I’m not comfortable with this doctor anymore, then then that’s all that they need. Yeah. Oh, you just have to be prepared to do a little bit of admin. Yeah.

Yeah, I’ve always known that it was possible in the UK to change your GP. I’ve never done it.

I’ve never done it with a GP but I’ve done it with a gastroenterologist. I did it here actually I the I had gallstones, for I talked about it just then, but I had them for a year. And my gastroenterologist at the time, kept doing random tests on me and not finding any results I spent a year going. It’s my gall bladder, like, I know it’s my gallbladder, I can feel it. It’s gall stones. And he wouldn’t order the tests to confirm that. So, in the end, I had to say, I had to go back to my GP, who was the person who referred me to a specialist and say I need another referral. This person isn’t listening to me and then got another specialist and had the test and it was like, yeah it’s your gallbladder and you know, bing bang, boom, problem solved.

Okay.

Yes, sorry. We have gone on quite long.

I’m kind of interested in this at the gallstones thing because they break ’em up Don’t they somehow

So they can do it depends on what the stone is made of. Different types of stones do different things. I ended up I just had my gallbladder taken out. I just it was it was like 20 stones in that so yeah, so that that was unpleasant. Yeah, yeah.

Poor you. You’ve not had the easy

Woe is me!

But think positive. Yeah. Hmm. Okay. Well anything else? No

I don’t think so. It’s been lovely to chat.

Yeah been really good. Yeah, very interesting. And as I said I love the book some really useful kind of general self help book for pretty much any chronic pain condition. Yeah, I think it would apply.

If people find it useful. That was really the whole point.

Yes. I, as I say, I think you made a lot of points which would be relevant to pretty much anyone suffering any kind of chronic pain condition it’s good read. Yeah. I think it would be be useful to to a lot of people. And so your website again is Amyorrbooks.com. And you are on Facebook and Twitter. Oh, yes,

I am.

Yeah. Under the same. Same,

same same, okay. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Good. Oh, right. I think in that case, where we’re, we’re done. Oh, yeah,

I think so. Um, I guess it’s probably quite late after that afternoon or evening there now. So I’ll let you go and have your dinner!

It’s 20 to 10

Wow. Well, there you go.

Yeah, we’re a few hours ahead of

you. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for having me on.

Well, thank you for being such a great guest. Yeah, is lovely to talk to and I think we’ve covered an awful lot of very important stuff. Yes.

Yeah, I hope so. Alright, well, I mean, obviously, please send me the link once.

I will do yeah, I’ll let you know. The episode will be your first which is going to be two, possibly three episodes because I tend to keep them to about half an hour. And they’ll start coming out in within the next few weeks so that you know when they when the first one is

perfect, sounds good. Thank you.

Lovely talking to you to find all the best. Bye bye bye bye.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai